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suzie
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by suzie »

Jas1 wrote:Again, I do not think it is particularly fair to blame Marty for every great role Doris never got to play!

Let us remember, thanks to Marty, Doris did The Man Who Knew Too Much, Midnight Lace [to name a few] and I am sure he had a big hand in persuading Doris to tackle 'sexy' in Pillow Talk and he also negotiated her professional reputation and salary to great heights from the mid 1950s onwards. Yes, there were negatives, but I think the positives far outweighed them!

In coming to this view, I fully take on board what happened in the end with Doris' finances, but even she herself, in later years has stated she thinks Marty just got involed with the wrong person. Marty [by negotiating a share of the profits] meant that Doris will continue to receive film royalties for such films as Pillow Talk and beyond. I read that Lana Turner [who was on a similar deal with Ross Hunter in Immitation of Life, Portrait in Black and Madam X] - continued to receive cheques right into the 1980s for re-runs of such films - in sums ranging from $20- 45 K !
I have to agree with Jas here as I think that Thanks to Marty we have had some great movies to watch.(movies we may not have ever been able to enjoy Doris being in had it been totally up to her . ) :wink:
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by webmaster »

Hello, Suzie, dear! :wink:
Jas said, "Let us remember, thanks to Marty, Doris did The Man Who Knew Too Much, Midnight Lace [to name a few] and I am sure he had a big hand in persuading Doris to tackle 'sexy' in Pillow Talk and he also negotiated her professional reputation and salary to great heights from the mid 1950s onwards. Yes, there were negatives, but I think the positives far outweighed them!"
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, :) - re "'sexy' in Pillow Talk", Ross Hunter claimed credit for that saying he 'took Doris out of the kitchen and into the bedroom'. (Doris was sexy anyway and it was just a matter of time!)

I don't think "Midnight Lace" or the Hitchcock film are really great films (shock horror!). The problem with Marty as agent AND husband is that he didn't ask Doris what she wanted to do and signed her up to make inferior films like "Caprice", to name just one she particularly disliked, without consulting her. If she'd had an agent at arm's length she would have been able to say 'No, I'm not interested - find me something else', With Marty she didn't have that choice - without being sued for breaking a contract already signed. The Doris Day Show is a good example of how he managed her career - sign the contract, get the advance (mismanage it) and then tell Doris - or not. I mean, he even made it impossible for her to leave him because of how he had handled her finances.

It's obvious that at one time they were very happy and I'm not criticizing him personally - I just think that we don't know what career choices Doris would have made had she had the chance. Why do we assume she wouldn't have made a better job of it? I can't help feeling that he destroyed her career because he was selling her as a product, as he saw it, and not trying to find the very best material for her that was worthy of her talent. We all know that Doris made any film she was in watchable because of her commitment but that isn't the point. Why can't she bare to watch many of them today? I think she just stopped caring in the end and was glad to leave Hollywood and not give it another thought.

This is my current take on it anyway and I'm willing to re-think it if you (anyone) wants to try and convince me otherwise.
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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Except that Bryan, deferring to Marty WAS her choice. She CHOSE to allow him to make all those decisions/deals and she could have stopped him anythime she wanted to. As for the mismanaged finances, even Doris said in 1991 she believes that Marty just trusted the wrong man, until it was too late. They were hardly alone in that. Rosenthal took MANY people to the cleaners, as did a few other unscrupulous business managers in Hollywood history. That could have happened to Doris even if she had never even met Marty.

As far as Ross Hunter & Pillow Talk, I sincerely doubt that he gave the script to Doris personally. I'm sure it went through Marty. If he hadn't wanted her to see it, she probably wouldn't have even known the project existed.

The reality is her career was what it was because of her choice to allow Marty to make his choices, good and bad. And as you said, we can't change history.
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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I take your point, John, but I'm not sure I buy the argument about it being her 'choice'. She married him, that WAS her choice but does that mean that everything that followed was her choice too?
Was it her choice to loose all the money she'd earned over the years through fraud and bad investments?
She was awarded $23 million by the courts but was left in debt and only received a fraction of it back. Was that her choice? At a time when she should have been able to retire with dignity on the money she'd earned after a lifetime of hard work she had to go back to work to pay off debts. Was that her choice?
I think the choice she made was to trust. Your argument implies that if you trust someone and they let you down, it's your choice. I accept that Melcher was probably swindled himself but it seems fairly clear that he made film deals and financial arrangements that she knew nothing about - or had little choice in the matter!
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by John M »

No, I don't buy that way of thinking. She talks in her autobiography about Marty signing her to films without her knowledge as early as Do Not Disturb. That can happen exactly once. If you KEEP allowing him to do that after that, it's because you are choosing to let him do that. I don't believe he forced her to give him final say. It was her life and her career, so she could have gone with another manager at any point she wanted to. She chose to stay with Marty (as a manager), even after Do Not Disturb. If it had been me, he'd have been fired after he signed me up for Caprice. He would have never gotten the chance to sign me up for Josie, Where Were You... or the TV series. Doris has the same free will we all have.
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by webmaster »

Ok, John, I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this. :)
The truth, whatever it is, is probably only known by those involved, but as followers of her career, we've probably all formed some judgments so it's not really worth arguing about. I'm not saying I'm right and you are wrong, all I'm saying is that this is my current take on it as a result of thinking about what Jaz and Suzie had to say.
And I'm not talking about him the man, just some considerations on his role as agent and manager and also as someone who feels that Doris was capable of so much more than some of the films she agreed to do for her Hollywood swan-song. But as you reminded me of a previous comment, you can't change history - and as Alfred Hitchcock used to say to over-anxious stars "Don't worry, it's only a movie". :roll:
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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John M wrote:She chose to stay with Marty (as a manager), even after Do Not Disturb. If it had been me, he'd have been fired after he signed me up for Caprice. He would have never gotten the chance to sign me up for Josie, Where Were You... or the TV series.
He made it impossible for her to divorce him without going bust, so what makes you think it would have been any easier for her to sack him as her agent?

We have no idea of the discussions or arguments that went on between the two. Maybe they had blazing rows each time Marty signed Doris up for a film without her knowledge; maybe she was so worn down by life and depression that she was beyond caring and never passed comment. We'll never know, so everything is pure conjecture.
Michele

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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chele_belle wrote:
John M wrote:She chose to stay with Marty (as a manager), even after Do Not Disturb. If it had been me, he'd have been fired after he signed me up for Caprice. He would have never gotten the chance to sign me up for Josie, Where Were You... or the TV series.
He made it impossible for her to divorce him without going bust, so what makes you think it would have been any easier for her to sack him as her agent?

We have no idea of the discussions or arguments that went on between the two. Maybe they had blazing rows each time Marty signed Doris up for a film without her knowledge; maybe she was so worn down by life and depression that she was beyond caring and never passed comment. We'll never know, so everything is pure conjecture.
Thanks to the Bryan-forum I got to know how Doris ended up.All I can say I feel very happy she got out of "it".Some movies for her were like just going to work,right?To us she looks like the radiant star with the fab smile,perfect cloths & funny scenes.I think she has been great throughout,having accepted all those movies through her husband.She managed to move on even with the Doris Day-show.She said she was tired and it was hard work.Somehow I can only relate that as a so many of us having to work for a living.Only she was in the spotlights and how!!!Who was to know what happened behind the scenes?I am thrilled she is going to celebrate her 86th birthday in good health and I admire her strenght.I don't think anyone can say "if it was me".We all have our situations in life.I fully agree with Bryan,some of her movies are really just taken on for the sake of it.Everybody loves her in Midnight Lace.It sounds great,but I never watched it a second time.Not to mention as I always have admired,the immaculate look of hers and all the patience to get through it.
And we should all be proud of the papparazzi-picture taken of her going to the supermarket last year.It took me ages to find it,and I was relieved.Doris looks like herself,I was absolutely not shocked.People automatically expect her to look the same as she was but to me she is so human as all others.Anyway,I am grateful for all I have gotten to learn after what happened when the DD-show stopped.She put Marty & co behind her.Way to go..
As we journey under our individual umbrella's,we should not forget we all share the same sky.Doris Day

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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Her son, Terry, said, more than once: "Doris moved on very well..She knew how to just move on..."
I only hope it was with a good degree of satisfaction. I really don't think she knew then, and I don't think she realizes now how much she is truly loved and respected. Yes, she gets lots of fan mail..but does she realize that she is one of the few stars left in Hollywood who is getting so much fan mail after being out of the public eye for so many years.?
Somehow, I think she still feels the pangs caused by those who treated her cruelly in print during her latter years of filmmaking. They were not bright enough to realize that no matter what Doris did, she gave it her best...and her best was far better than anyone else in her era. And that is why she has lasted..why she is so popular today. And I am pretty sure she still feels the pangs of the two Sour Apple Awards she received from those stupid press people who did not know any better.
Keith Angstadt has said he has received hundreds of pieces of correspondance from all over the world regarding the fact that he is playing so much of Doris' music on http://www.frednetradio.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I am happy to hear that and happy that fans have a place to go to hear so much of her music whenever they are online. Now, if we could wake up more radio stations. And also a few movie houses that occasionally run old movies to start running some of hers, perhaps we could give Doris more of an idea of how much she is truly loved.
It is high time this superb actress and incomparable songstress received all the recognition she has truly deserved.

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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Mikey,
Thank you so much for http://www.frednetradio.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . I'm listening to "With You (anywhere you are)" right now! You keep it up my sweet friend.....go after those movie theaters too.
"To err is human -- to forgive is canine" Unknown

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by doris-day-fan »

I agree with you Diane - love the music FredNet plays - and so much Doris music. Mike, thanks for putting us on to this wonderful station....hope you do the show with Doris songs. The other music is nice, too, but you can't beat Doris - how nice to hear her on radio again.

Another great station to listen to is AM740 from Ontario, Canada - Zoomer Radio. On SUnday Night there is BIG BAND SUNDAY NIGHT and George plays a lot of Doris too....isn't this great.

Thanks for all the info....it is great to have a place like the FORUM, thanks to our dear Bryan, where we can share all the info and keep up to date as much as possible. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Mary Anne
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John M
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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chele_belle wrote:He made it impossible for her to divorce him without going bust, so what makes you think it would have been any easier for her to sack him as her agent?
Because I work in the industry Michele, and one has zero to do with the other. Their joint investments as husband and wife were jeopardized by a divorce in a community property state like California, especially as it would have necessitated a forensic accounting of all holdings. That is in no way comparable to his being fired as her manager. There was zero risk to their investments if she were to change managers.

And Marty didn't make it impossible to divorce him, that was Rosenthal. Marty would never have set anything up where he'd LOSE everything if something out of his control happened. He worshipped money too much. Doris had started divorce proceedings when Marty came and, as Doris says, begged her not to go through with it because they'd lose eveything financially. He explained the risk to the investments and Doris herself says she CHOSE to stay married to protect their finances. She, by her own admission, could have chosen to proceed with the divorce and start over. But she chose to remain married for the sake of their finances, except that, as she said in her book, it was now on her terms, i.e. they would no longer have sex and basically live separate lives in reality. So according to her, she was dictating the personal side of their relationship in the mid to late sixties. She could have chosen the same thing on a professional level as she did on a personal level.

And we do know a certain amount of what was said between the two over the issue, as Doris talks about their fights over each of the later movies in her autobiography, especially the argument they had over his signing her to Caprice without her knowledge, which she said was "typical" of their discussions about the films in question. There is no "conjecture" in what Doris describes.

But, as Bryan pointed out, none of this changes what occurred one way or the other.
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by webmaster »

Thanks for that, John, that clears a lot up and reminded me of some things I had forgotten and others I hadn't taken into account. What Jas and Suzie said are true also - Doris relied on him a lot and, by and large, he gave her that support. I'm thinking of the story Director Delbert Mann told of when Doris got upset on the set of "That Touch of Mink" when she saw she was going to be filmed from the left and summoned Marty to sort it out with Cary, who also didn't like being filmed from the left, something that took an hour's persuasion before Gary agreed. So he was her Mr Fix it and yes that was her choice. But they were also a real family, with Terry, for quite some time and Terry said years after he died that he and Doris still loved him.
We should probably move on and talk about something else before we get into too much deep water... but I don't want to censor people...


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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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Point taken, wise webmaster. 8)
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by suzie »

Great points made by both Bryan and John. One last note on this subject if I may .
I have always found Doris and Marty very interesting as here they lived in the tail end of the glitz and glory days of old Hollywood and yet they lived fairly normal lives. I think that is one of the things that have always made them so popular . Just regular folks earning a living and living the life they were givin . The Melchers made their share of mistakes (just like the rest of us. ) they also made alot of great moves to. What I love about them as a couple is they were as normal as apple pie , not at all pretencious . The Melchers were the family next door... who just happened to known and loved ALL over the world .
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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It has been interesting to read all of the above comments about Doris and her relation to Marty, both as a husband and as a manager. Yes, it seems that for many years they were pretty happy and enjoyed the limelight and all that goes with it. They both worked very hard to put Doris where she was "top box office queen" for many years. They deserved all the credit for this and all the adulation, etc.

While I never heard Doris say anything derogatory about Marty per se, one thing that always stands out in my mind was the day we were in the little local luggage shop down from Nate 'N Al's. Doris was getting ready for her European trip in 1973 to meet up with Jackie Susann and all....As Doris was looking at luggage - she finally found a lovely set and commented, "At last I am able to select my very own luggage, something I really like." I asked what she meant and she said, "Marty was always making deals and I got whatever he selected." I was dumbfounded - here I was an employee and I had always picked out my luggage and it was something I really wanted. I felt sorry for Doris that even though she was the main big money maker in the family, she went by his "rules."

Another time something came up about her days filming JUMBO at MGM - she said they were living at their Malibu home at the time - she said Marty was always good about waking her up around 5am since the driver would be there to whisk her off to the studio very early in the am - she said Marty would go back into bed to sleep a few more hours and then play tennis most of the day - she told me he got an associate producer to do the work so that he would have time to play tennis....

As I said, she never said anything really bad about him, but some of these comments made me really wonder what happened....why did she the "money-maker" allow him to make these decisions? No one will ever know the real reasons all of this happened...we can only be grateful that today Doris is healthy and living comfortably in a beautiful home with her kids...what more can we ask for? Hopefully, she is very happy now.
God bless her for ALL she has done for so many and all the joy she has given to each of us.

Mary Anne
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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Another interesting aside to the relationship: - when Doris 'really' did not want to do a scipt - she did indeed say NO - for example - 'The Graduate'.

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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webmaster wrote:Mike, I can't see Doris in any of the musicals you talk of - probably because the actresses involved did such a good job and made them their own, like Doris in "Calamity", and don't forget The Pajama Game, Jumbo, both under-rated, and the fantastic Love Me or Leave Me. I would like to have seen her teamed up with Gordon for Oklahoma and Carousel, and maybe with Howard Keel in Annie Get Your Gun. But you can't rewrite history, :roll:
I just wanted to agree :) And to say I'd love to see her in the lead of The Music Man also, and maybe also Singing In The Rain!!
Megan
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by webmaster »

I just heard Doris sing "It's a Great Feeling" as the background music to a new ad for "Actimel", one of those 'good bacteria' drinks. Sounded fresh as a daisy! 8)
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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webmaster wrote:I just heard Doris sing "It's a Great Feeling" as the background music to a new ad for "Actimel", one of those 'good bacteria' drinks. Sounded fresh as a daisy! 8)
I agree agree ....

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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I heard Doris' version of "Winter Wonderland" playing at a craft store near my house on Sunday...it made me happy. :D
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~Nicki~

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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you can hear Doris sing twice an hour on http://www.frednetradio.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; whenever you are on the internet. What a blessing this station is!

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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by doris-day-fan »

Mike,
Thank you so much for alerting us to FredNet radio....have been enjoying hearing their music and what a treat to get DD at least 2 times an hour thanks to you and your huge contribution to the station. You ought to do a "DORIS DAY HOUR(S)" on that station! It would be nice to have the station on at work - may just put it on low and enjoy some great music.

Mary Anne
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

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I LOVE Frednet Radio!!

Lauren
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Re: Doris Day: General Discussion 3

Unread post by mikeydv »

Starting the day after Thanksgiving, frednet will be ALL CHRISTMAS until Dec 26. Keith has everything Doris has ever recorded for Christmas (so it should be a good year for Christmas music, too, this year).
After the holidays, keep tuned. He is trying to talk me into doing a Doris Day Hour once a week live ...we shall see.

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